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Justin Schneider

DNR definition of no-wake?


Hey guys,

I'm looking for a little claification on a DNR ruling. Heres the thing:

I had the pleasure of getting stopped by a Washington Co. Sherrif last evening on the Croix. As the officer approached, he stated that I was stopped for making a "wake" in a no wake zone, and he would be issuing me a warning, along with doing a routine check up of my boat.

I politely informed the officer that I was not making a wake to my knowlege, and asked him his ruling on what a wake is. Unforunately he wasn't really able to tell me what exactly a wake it. He simply stated that if there is a wave behind your boat, its a wake. I was always under the impression that in order to be considered a wake, the water behind your boat must be curling over/forming a white cap.

Also the officer gave me a warning because my life jacket was not accessable. He stated that since my life jacket was in a compartment located in the bow of the boat that it was not accessable and the law states that it needed to be. I thought this was just for your throwable.

Am I correct on these, or did I get off lucky with a warning????


Suzuki

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


I consider curling over a wave. A wake would be any noticable disturbance eminating outward from stern. Large enough to affect a nearby object. Obviously there is no way to measure and it is at the officers discretion. Didnt know the life jackets had to be accesbile. I too thought just the throwable. Mine have always been but only because I dont have a compartment to fit them in. Thanks for the info.

--------------------
Mike


Pete Bauer

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Quote:

Didnt know the life jackets had to be accesbile. I too thought just the throwable. Mine have always been but only because I dont have a compartment to fit them in. Thanks for the info.




I was always under the impression that they can be in a storage compartment as long as it isn't locked?

--------------------
Pete Bauer - BauerOutdoors.com


BrianKAdministrator

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Not sure of the DNR def...but the USCG's is as slow as possible and still have control of your vessel.

As far as PFD's go...let's just forget about the law for a moment. If your jacket is not "accessible" like in a compartment, what good will it do?

Although I would like to preach about wearing a pdf all the time while on the water...I'll spare everyone.



today.

--------------------
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Stinkycat

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


What is the definition of "accessible" in the DNR's view?

Wade B AKA: Ruger2506

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Page 15 of the 2009 MN DNR boating regs.

The requirements for PFDs are as follows:
On all boats (except a sailboard) regardless of
length (including canoes, kayaks and duck boats),
INFLATABLE
15
MN 4316 AD
Less than 16 feet
or any size canoe or
kayak One life jacket
per person
16 feet or longer
except canoes
and kayaks
MN 2000 GT
there must be a readily accessible U.S. Coast Guard
approved Type I, II, III or V wearable PFD (life jacket)
for each person on board. Type IV throwable devices,
such as buoyant cushions, are no longer
acceptable primary lifesaving devices.
IN ADDITION, on boats 16 feet or longer (except
canoes and kayaks) there must also be at
least one U.S. Coast Guard approved Type IV throwable
device, such as a buoyant cushion or ring
buoy immediately available for each boat.
The law does not state that PFDs must be worn,
only that they are readily accessible except for
personal watercraft (Wave Runners, Jet Skis, etc.)
and children under 10. (see page 16)
HOWEVER... we highly recommend that PFDs
always be worn by everyone on board any boat.
Check the label on the PFD to make sure it is a
U.S. Coast Guard approved flotation device and
what type of device it is.

Page 16.
&#57445; Readily accessible - means easily retrievable
within a reasonable amount of time in an
emergency. PFDs in plastic bags, locked
lockers, or under anchors or line are examples
of PFDs that are not accessible.
&#57445; Immediately available - means Type IV
throwable devices must be easily reached in
time of an emergency by someone on board
the boat. Generally this means they will be
in the open and not in a container.

Edited by Ruger2506 (05/27/09 10:51 AM)


life1978

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Quote:


I was always under the impression that they can be in a storage compartment as long as it isn't locked?




Same here

--------------------
I'm a cultured person with the vocabulary of a highly educated sailor.


Alumanator

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


This is what the 2008 Minnesota Statutes says
Subd. 16a.Slow-no wake.

"Slow-no wake" means operation of a watercraft at the slowest possible speed necessary to maintain steerage, but in no case greater than five miles per hour.

It took some time to find this.


Wade B AKA: Ruger2506

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Quote:

What is the definition of "accessible" in the DNR's view?




&#57445; Readily accessible - means easily retrievable
within a reasonable amount of time in an
emergency. PFDs in plastic bags, locked
lockers, or under anchors or line are examples
of PFDs that are not accessible.
&#57445; Immediately available - means Type IV
throwable devices must be easily reached in
time of an emergency by someone on board
the boat. Generally this means they will be
in the open and not in a container.


--------------------
"To the sportsman who appreciates wildlife and the outdoor experience, a trophy is judged by so much more than inches and mathematics."

Edited by Ruger2506 (05/27/09 10:52 AM)


Nic Habeck

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?



"operation of a watercraft at the slowest possible speed necessary to maintain steerage, but in no case greater than five miles per hour."

Has nothing to do with the size of your wave.

--------------------
Nothing makes a fish bigger than almost being caught. ~Author Unknown


DaveB

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


I thought that the life jacket rule was changed when they made it manditory that kids under X had to have one on at all times. They now need to be out and accessible. The 1st thing I do now it take them out and put them on the chair backs for anyone in the boat.

A wake is a wave from your boat (or a reason for an Irishman to drink!). If you are in current moving upstream, I think a wake at 1-2 GPS mph is acceptable. Any other noticable wave is an offense IMO.


Wade B AKA: Ruger2506

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Quote:

I thought that the life jacket rule was changed when they made it manditory that kids under X had to have one on at all times. They now need to be out and accessible. The 1st thing I do now it take them out and put them on the chair backs for anyone in the boat.

A wake is a wave from your boat (or a reason for an Irishman to drink!). If you are in current moving upstream, I think a wake at 1-2 GPS mph is acceptable. Any other noticable wave is an offense IMO.




&#57445; Mandatory Child Life Jacket Wear Law:
As of May 6, 2005, Minnesota law requires a
life jacket to be worn by children less than
10 years old when aboard any watercraft
17
while underway. Underway means not attached
to a permanent mooring or tied to a
dock. There are exceptions to the wear law
for:
(1) children who are below the top deck or
in an enclosed cabin,
(2) children aboard passenger vessels being
operated by a licensed captain,
(3) children on a boat that is anchored for the
purpose of swimming or diving.

--------------------
"To the sportsman who appreciates wildlife and the outdoor experience, a trophy is judged by so much more than inches and mathematics."


jon wbl

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


I keep my life jackets on the seats also. I keep them on tightly so they won't blow off. I think it was on Vermilion a fews years ago that a CO told me that they where on the seats to tight and not easily accessable.

Wade B AKA: Ruger2506

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Here is the link.

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/rlp/regulations/boatwater/boatingguide.pdf

--------------------
"To the sportsman who appreciates wildlife and the outdoor experience, a trophy is judged by so much more than inches and mathematics."


Joe Scegura

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


I don't think you disserved a warning if your lifejackets were on top in an unlocked compartment.


--------------------
Joe Scegura - Joe Scegura's Guide Service
"Walleye, Pike, Muskies & Panfish on Alexandria Area Lakes & Mille Lacs!
Ph# 320-260-9056



Gary

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


File a complaint with Washington County for receiving a warning without just cause.
See where it takes you.

--------------------
G-


Walleyebuster

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


I do the same Dave. Life jackets and floatation come out the second I dip the boat (then the net!). And like Brian said, what good is it if it's in a compartment, locked or not? Just my 2cents.

--------------------
-The more you know, the more you want to know-


Ralph Wiggum

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Personally, I think you got lucky on both offenses with just a warning. No harm done, just learn from the mistake.

--------------------
~Ryan (my name is not really Ralph Wiggum )


Justin Schneider

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Wow! Thanks for all the replies guys.

I guess this means I need to slow down a bit more than usual. Whats funny is that I've been operating my boat in this manner for 10+ years throught the now wake zones in the Croix and have never been stopped until now.

Quote:

File a complaint with Washington County for receiving a warning without just cause.




I thought about his as well, simply becuase of the life jacket issue, but we will see. It's just a little frustrating to know that my boat will now be targeted in the future IMO.


Rootski

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Quote:

As far as PFD's go...let's just forget about the law for a moment. If your jacket is not "accessible" like in a compartment, what good will it do?




I can swim almost as well as a 1968 Buick LeSabre...so I wear the thing and keep it on.

--------------------
If people don't occasionally walk away from you shaking their heads, you're probably doing something wrong - John Gierach


Catillac

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


How does a Slow Speed zone differ? Is there a mph max or is it the same definition?
http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/rlp/regulations/boatwater/stcroixboatingrules.pdf


Gary

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Quote:

Wow! Thanks for all the replies guys.

I guess this means I need to slow down a bit more than usual. Whats funny is that I've been operating my boat in this manner for 10+ years throught the now wake zones in the Croix and have never been stopped until now.

Quote:

File a complaint with Washington County for receiving a warning without just cause.




I thought about his as well, simply becuase of the life jacket issue, but we will see. It's just a little frustrating to know that my boat will now be targeted in the future IMO.




I'm not saying to file a complaint to be a jerk or anything about it in any way. I would file a complaint due to the peace officer not knowing the laws and to ensure there is uniform interpretation of the laws amongst all people (those who uphold the law, as well as those whom follow).

--------------------
G-


EyesNDucks

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


I was told about the life jackets needing to be out while on pool 5a by both the WI and MN CO's. If you really want to get technical, they may also check to see if your battery terminals are covered. I can't recall the exact reg but I know you have to have at least one of the terminals cover and I believe I was told this is a Coast Guard thing.

Good luck and be safe no matter where you are at on the water. Just like the recent accident on pool 4, you always have to be aware and concerned about the others out there.

--------------------
Dave

Navigator 175T & Yamaha F75


Lip Ripper

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Rootski who are you kidding???? We all know that the LeSabre can swim better.

--------------------
Lip Ripper (aka Rob Stenger)



Perch_44

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


i just put the lifejackets and throwable under the console by my feet. they are out of the way, but very accessible.

--------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't sleep. He waits...


Czech

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


We were checked out by a WI CO a couple of weeks back on the Croix. He went through everything, including asking for my friend's wearable which said friend then removed from the front hatch. CO didn't say anything other than my boat may need some new number decals which are pealing. I told him he better put his lights on as it was getting dark, we were already lit up. Love my Floatright!

Ralph Wiggum

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


I don't think you have any basis for filing a complaint. You were traveling faster than a no-wake speed and your life jacket was in a compartment. Both clear violations of the laws that have been previously posted. I don't see that the officer did anything wrong.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but especially since he just gave you a warning, I'd drop it.

--------------------
~Ryan (my name is not really Ralph Wiggum )


BrianKAdministrator

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Because of the way the law is written and people view the whole accessible thing differently, I've asked county and dnr enforcement what the law is.

One will tell me in an unlocked compartment (Dakota County water Patrol) one will say out of any compartment (Washington County and the DNR)...although I'm going to guess it might depend on which officer I ask.

So...my policy was to keep the throwable attached to the snap compartment in the bow. Grab it and go...and wear one of the many Class Five PFD on the market today. Class V meaning it must be worn to be legal.

No wear lifie jacket...boat no go.

No law enforcement has said boo to me in over 3 years.
I encourage every one that goes on the water to ask their Favorite Spouse for one of the auto inflate PFD's on the market today for their birthday or Christmas. They are just too comfortable!

--------------------
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swimingjig

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


I got a warning about 8 years ago for not haveing my throw cusion out ( normally I do have it out). My life Vest was on the floor but he said I still need a cusion out. My arguement was since I was out fishing by myselfe who would throw it to me if I needed it. He was stumped. He just said that is the law.

They just want everybody to be safe.


Clarence Chapman

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Had one stop me for going to fast through Kinny during high water. I litteraly would move backward (down river) if I had no wake. I gave it just enough to move forward and they stopped me and threatened a ticket. I challenged them to go below the Kinny and come back up with out a wake. Of coarse they declined my challenge and let me off with a warning
but common sense has nothing to do with the law with some of the officers. And you are right, There is no clear interpretation of the law on wake or life jackets. It can be a loosing situation if you take one interepretation as bible.

--------------------
Og Mandino
" So long as there is breath in me, that long I will persist. For now I know one of the greatest principles on success; if I persist long enough "I WILL WIN".


Suzuki

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Quote:

Because of the way the law is written and people view the whole accessible thing differently, I've asked county and dnr enforcement what the law is.

One will tell me in an unlocked compartment (Dakota County water Patrol) one will say out of any compartment (Washington County and the DNR)...although I'm going to guess it might depend on which officer I ask.

So...my policy was to keep the throwable attached to the snap compartment in the bow. Grab it and go...and wear one of the many Class Five PFD on the market today. Class V meaning it must be worn to be legal.

No wear lifie jacket...boat no go.

No law enforcement has said boo to me in over 3 years.
I encourage every one that goes on the water to ask their Favorite Spouse for one of the auto inflate PFD's on the market today for their birthday or Christmas. They are just too comfortable!



Interesting while on Red this year the DNR warned my buddies that both of their auto inflate PFD's being warn did not count towards the number of life jackets on board per person. CO's were probably wrong and didnt say boo to the same guys the next day but they definitely dont all know the rules and all we can do as citizens is take what they dish out.

--------------------
Mike


Kooty

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Was this before or after fishing the "private" creek??

--------------------
I was born in the 70's, grew up in 80's, made my mistakes in 90's now I'm just trying to make up for lost time.

John


*Nick*

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Gotta figure it's high inforcement time, especially on the St.Croix.

Either way for what's it worth it's probably worthless to argue things on the water in the real world.

I always maintain under 5 mph, when in a no wake zone. And I agree that lifejackets on top of the non locked compartment are legal, but I don't think it's a good idea, 2 reason, one the thing is for your safety, and two arguments sake, at minimum if they are not being worn they are out and in the open. And secondly just because they are cops and the write the tickets doesn't mean they know the law, in fact I think they are inclinded to write a ticket and let the courts settle the argument... In otherword you maybe be able to beat the charge, you may not beat the getting the ticket or trip court, but you may get yourself out of a fine. I was stopped once, around 8 years ago, lifejackets were in the compartments, I got some dirty looks, but was with in legality.

I respectfully disagree with ralph, and I feel as an american citizen you should feel free to standup for your rights and not be prosecuted for being within your legal rights.

I don't have the means to do it at this point, but someday in the future, I will have all automatic inflatable lifejackets on my boat, (for those to be legal they have to be worn) and they will be required to be worn in my boat.


Suzuki

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Quote:

Was this before or after fishing the "private" creek??



The only reply I can think of would likely get pulled even though it would be funny as #^$@#& I'll have to call you names in fun using PM. Boring....

--------------------
Mike


MsTrumar

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Quote:


As far as PFD's go...let's just forget about the law for a moment. If your jacket is not "accessible" like in a compartment, what good will it do?

Although I would like to preach about wearing a pdf all the time while on the water...I'll spare everyone.



today.




I am with Brian on this one If you can't reach it when you need it, what good is it? Think about the boat accident this past weekend, do you suppose they had theirs "accessible" I doubt it.


311Hemi

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Quote:

I am with Brian on this one If you can't reach it when you need it, what good is it? Think about the boat accident this past weekend, do you suppose they had theirs "accessible" I doubt it.




Not that it matters (I don't wear mine but they are accessible), but for those on the boat this past weekend having them accessible would not have made a difference based on how it sounds the accident happend.


Czech

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Had anyone drowned it would have made a difference if they had them on. It isn't a matter of knowing how to swim when you go in KO'd.

Steve Plantz

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Quote:

I can swim almost as well as a 1968 Buick LeSabre






--------------------
"Fear of failure must never be a reason not to try something."

www.walleyesearchers.org
www.johnstackleserv.com


311Hemi

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Quote:

Had anyone drowned it would have made a difference if they had them on. It isn't a matter of knowing how to swim when you go in KO'd.




I agree. I was mainly getting to the point that having them on was the only way it would have made a difference. Locked up, under a console, or wrapped around a chair would not have. Thankfully they all made it out alive.


Kooty

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Quote:

Quote:

Had anyone drowned it would have made a difference if they had them on. It isn't a matter of knowing how to swim when you go in KO'd.




I agree. I was mainly getting to the point that having them on was the only way it would have made a difference. Locked up, under a console, or wrapped around a chair would not have. Thankfully they all made it out alive.




That has always been my position. If they ain't on, they ain't gonna save you. No matter where they are in the boat, as far as I'm concerned why even have them if you aren't wearing them. Doesn't mean I wear mine like I should, but I'm also realistic.

--------------------
I was born in the 70's, grew up in 80's, made my mistakes in 90's now I'm just trying to make up for lost time.

John


Gary

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Quote:

I don't think you have any basis for filing a complaint. You were traveling faster than a no-wake speed and your life jacket was in a compartment. Both clear violations of the laws that have been previously posted. I don't see that the officer did anything wrong.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but especially since he just gave you a warning, I'd drop it.




Quote:

&#57445; Readily accessible - means easily retrievable
within a reasonable amount of time in an
emergency. PFDs in plastic bags, locked
lockers, or under anchors or line are examples
of PFDs that are not accessible.





Not arguing with ya Ralph.
locked lockers
It is just that the warning is not valid per the law. They were not "locked" in a locker. Nothing irritates me more than a law enformement person not knowing the law they are specifically trying to enforce. People are human and make mistakes, but if a complaint is not filed, the officer will never be educated or informed of his mistake.

On the other hand, I do agree with BK and Kooty, if they are not on, you are SOL if you need it.

--------------------
G-


Ralph Wiggum

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Gary, if it were me in this situation, I would drop it. Had I gotten a ticket, sure, I would fight it since it wasn't in a locked compartment, but in my mind, a PFD in a comparment isn't readily accessible. I do see your point, but a warning doesn't mean squat, so I'd be on my merry way

--------------------
~Ryan (my name is not really Ralph Wiggum )


BrianKAdministrator

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Quote:

but a warning doesn't mean squat




Well...it does in a way. Written warnings are recorded on a persons record. If for some reason the LE stops me and sees I've had a warning, he could be inclined to hand me a ticket when, if I had a clean record it would have been a warning.

I hope that doesn't come across as splitting hairs.

--------------------
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Ralph Wiggum

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


I've had enough of this.

--------------------
~Ryan (my name is not really Ralph Wiggum )


big G

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


After reading this thread... IMHO, you know when you are making a wake, with any specific vessel... so does the DNR. Is it defineable 100%, probably not. Also, switching gears, who here would support having a floatation device (IE life jacket or belt) being mandatory to wear when under power, for all occupants ? Granted, when sitting, things can also happen, but let's just start with, while under power or moving (IE drifting)

big G

--------------------
big G

You can tell how big a person is, by what it takes to discourage them! "Hooks"




Kooty

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


I would support it, probably would complain a bit, but would support it.

--------------------
I was born in the 70's, grew up in 80's, made my mistakes in 90's now I'm just trying to make up for lost time.

John


DaveB

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


I would be STRONGLY opposed to it.

I do need laws to tell me how to live my life. I can handle that myself.

Next thing you know, they will try to tell me what car to drive, what color to paint my roof, or what food I can eat......


Kooty

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Quote:

I would be STRONGLY opposed to it.

I do need laws to tell me how to live my life. I can handle that myself.

Next thing you know, they will try to tell me what car to drive, what color to paint my roof, or what food I can eat......




I can't argue with that too, but they do tell you to wear a seat belt.

--------------------
I was born in the 70's, grew up in 80's, made my mistakes in 90's now I'm just trying to make up for lost time.

John


BrianKAdministrator

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


As much as I'm a supporter of always wearing a PDF...I wouldn't support a law.

We need some Dawinism out there.

I don't support the seat belt law, but I do always wear one.

(We are not talking kids here.)

--------------------
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Chris Tuckner

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Quote:

I would be STRONGLY opposed to it.

I do need laws to tell me how to live my life. I can handle that myself.

Next thing you know, they will try to tell me what car to drive, what color to paint my roof, or what food I can eat......




Or Nationalized health care, or serialize our ammunition...


big G

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


Wow... simple question... some posters were talking how "stored" life jackets did nothing for the people that flew off the boat on the river that Stickboy rescued last weekend. I never wear one... it's much like a helmet on a motorcycle, some do it, some will not. Is it really about politics ??? I don't think so...

big G

--------------------
big G

You can tell how big a person is, by what it takes to discourage them! "Hooks"




Chris Tuckner

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?




big G

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?




--------------------
big G

You can tell how big a person is, by what it takes to discourage them! "Hooks"




Suzuki

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


WOW! This post is still going?

--------------------
Mike


Jeremy Crawford

Re: DNR definition of no-wake?


In Iowa its considered a closed throttle while in gear.

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